Black Forest Shires
Frequently Asked Questions 

How much do Shires cost?  Shires have been called the "vanity breed" of draft horses, due to their rarity and respectively higher prices compared to the other draft breeds. A weanling shire of even questionable quality, will rarely sell for less than $1500. If you are looking for a good-quality weanling, expect to pay at least about $3000, on up to about $8,000 for the truly exceptional horses. Fillies usually bring more than colts, and color and markings play a factor in the price people get for the babies. Unfortunately, a "perfectly marked" black baby will usually bring more money than a similar baby that doesn't have "the right" color and markings. This issue will be discussed more in detail in the breeding section of the FAQ's.
As for prices on adult horses, a nice mare of breeding age, with no particular training, will likely cost between $4000 and $8,000. If you can find a mare with great conformation, good color and markings, training, that is BIG, that mare will likely cost about $7,000-$14,000. Geldings are cheaper than mares usually, but I doubt that you could find a broke shire gelding of even not-so-great quality for under about $3000. I would guess that most nice, hitchy geldings sell for around $4000 - $10,000. I don't deal in many geldings though.

Can you ride them?  Absolutely!  Some shires make excellent riding horses, even better than some light horses!  Their calm nature and easy way of going makes them exceptional on the trail.  Many have a nice build for disciplines like dressage, with smooth gaits, and great agility.  Just like with any horse, some have better gaits, and are more sensitive.  You just have to find the one that's right for you!  On this web site you will find lots of pictures of us riding our shires.  Can you jump them?  Well, since they are so willing to please, yes, they will jump, but we don't recommend making a career out of it.  Those bones were just not built for all of that mass to come pounding down on them on a regular basis.   Moderation is the key.  

What do you look for in a good shire?  Good draft horse conformation in general, including "set".  Set is having angle to the hind legs for leverage. This is NOT to be confused with being "cow hocked". Cow hocks are when the actual leg joints are not in alignment and are angled. A horse with good set has a perfectly straight leg (as is important in any breed) and that whole leg is put onto the horse at a slight angle, with hocks together. This is what a pulling horse of any type needs to do his job properly. An old saying goes that a good draft horse will, (expletives removed :>) At a walk, "Poop on one hock, and knock it off with the other as it goes by"
   Another thing that is very important to look for is sufficient bone to support that big horse, without being coarse, but he should still have good, clean limbs. A horse that has a huge body on top of little spindly legs will not hold up for a useful life.
   Last, but certainly not least it a great disposition.  Rankness might have a place in some light horse breeds, but when your horse weighs a ton there is just no place for anything but a perfect disposition.

What do you NOT look for in a good shire?  Size, color, and markings! These are the least important things to be bred for in any type animal.  It seems so silly to have to say this, as it is "Breeding 101", but in the shire breed this thought seems, quite often, to have been left out.  Hopefully more breeders will learn this, and our breed can get back to having many great horses, and not many horses with great colors and markings.  I can't tell you how many times I hear "My horse has perfect markings, and therefore I should breed him".  It makes me sick just thinking of it! 

Why don't Black Forest Shires' horses have docked tails or "scotch bottom" shoes?

Our showing philosophy:

    There is great controversy over the docked tails issue, but of course everyone knows it's not natural for a horse to have its tail cut off.  Because of this, no matter what the show judge wants, we here are Black Forest Shires refuse to ever dock a horse's tail for vanity, ease of care, or for what the judge wants to see.  Our tails will be nicely braided up for show so that the officials can clearly see the full hind end of the horse.  Yea, it's a lot of work, but for 99% of the year, they have to be a horse, and we can't in good conscience chop off a body part for that other 1% of the year.  Many draft horse people do it, and that's up to them, but you won't find that here.  We realize and accept that we may get placed down in the show ring for this, but we put our horse's well-being over ribbons as a matter of choice.
     As for the "scotch bottom" shoes. There is a bit of confusion over what a "scotch" shoe is.  Literally, it means a shoe that is beveled so that it follows the angle of the hoof to the ground.  Great!...  But, in the US, the term has been bastardized to mean huge square shoes (for the front hooves) that make the horse's foot much larger than it was ever intended to be, and that are totally squared in the front to make the horse break over earlier. These two things combined (excess weight and a fast breakover) will make any horse have more action.  This action is unnatural, and can be harmful to the horse if done to excess, especially when these shoes are placed on young, growing legs.  In the hind, the "scotch bottom" shoes have a "trailer" on the outside, so that when the hoof is on the ground, the hocks are unnaturally thrown together to achieve that so-desired draft horse "set".  A draft horse is supposed to have hind legs that are "set" at a good angle for leverage in pulling. The leg itself should be straight, but "put on" at an angle so that the hocks are nearly touching when the horse stands square.  Many people feel that if you can't get that with good breeding that it's just as good to do it with shoeing.  If you do this so dramatically on a horse that doesn't have *good* draft horse conformation, it will surely lame a horse in time.  Certainly, not all do it to the extreme that will injure the horse, but unfortunately too many do.  We don't do it to any degree, because it's just not natural for the horse.  We want ours to live long, healthy, sound lives, even if they don't do as well in the show ring because we don't follow the norm.
     We are pleased to say though, that so far in our showing career, we have not been penalized for not resorting to gimmicks to make our horses show better.  We like to think that a judge in the ring will pick the better horse, and not the horse with the better shoer. That better shoer will do you NO good in the breeding barn!  As far as halter classes for breeding animals go, I certainly hope the judges pick a horse with nice NATURAL action, so that the breeds can be improved and this reliance on extreme artificial means to get movement can eventually stop.

What's the difference between an English Shire registered with the SHS and an American Shire registered with the ASHA?  This, unfortunately, is a very important question in the Shire horse industry.  Unlike many breeds of horses in the United States, we have 2 registries to consider from when buying shire horses.  The American Shire Horse Association (ASHA), is the one for shires in the US (contrary to the name, it is not the registry for shires in Canada), and the English Shire Horse Society (SHS), which is an association for registering shires worldwide.  

A couple differences in the associations:

• Registration - In the ASHA, registry is automatic.  If a horse comes from registered horses from any shire registry, it has a right to be granted papers.  In the SHS registry, mares from SHS registered (not from other shire registries) sires and dams, are given registration, but colts and stallions (also only from SHS registered sires and dams) have to be inspected by an independent panel or veterinarian at 2 years of age before they are eligible for registration.  They also must pass an inspection again at 6 years in order to maintain their registration.  This ensures that stallions that do not meet the breed standard or have some other genetic fault will not be bred.  

• Shows - If a horse has been around the show circuit in the UK and done well, that holds MUCH more clout than if a horse has been shown and done well in the US.  The reason for this is that there are many more shires in a much more concentrated area in the UK than in the US, so there is some real competition in the ring.  The larger UK shire shows are also judged by a panel of trained judges, so it is not "one man's opinion on one day" that chooses the best horse.  

• Programs and Education:  England has several government and independently sponsored programs that promote the breeding and showing of only GOOD shire horses.   The English government even gives breeders of high-quality stock money if their horses are proven to be superior (this is judged by yet another independent panel at the larger shire shows around the country).   Wouldn't you breed only good horses if you knew that passing the muster would mean that 'Uncle Sam' would send you a check?  Even if a horse is never shown over in the UK, the years of these programs (or, should I say, "programmes" :>) being in place have increased the quality of breeding stock overall.  The American association has no wide-reaching program in place at this time to educate the public on what to look for in a good shire horse, and no incentives given to breeders of good stock as opposed to average to low-quality stock.  As a matter of fact, their judges aren't even trained in what to look for in a good shire horse.

The 2 registries are not interchangeable, and, although any Shire horse association in the world accepts SHS papers as "carte blanche", there is no reciprocal agreement with the American Association.  With the rules and breed standards being different as they are today, it isn't very realistic to expect the English association to accept American registered horses that haven't gone through the more rigid requirements for English registration.  

Occasionally, an English registered shire horse will be brought over to the US, and the owner will only register the horse with the ASHA and not transfer the English papers.  When this occurs, although you still have an English Shire by breeding, you can't be assured that the stock that he/she has been bred to, and therefore the offspring, have come from the best possible stock available.  When you don't have English stock, you lose the benefit of the years of incentives the English have enjoyed to assure breeding of superior Shire horses.  One way that many English shire breeders look at this situation is that, since the mother registry of shire horses (SHS) does not acknowledge that an ASHA registered horse is a shire at all, this horse is lost to the breed.  

Because of these all of these differences, we choose to breed English (SHS) registered shire horses.  We feel that, while the ASHA has a place for registering Shire horses that are mainly of American blood, that the SHS is the more discerning registry, that produces, as a whole, better horses.  The American Association has been discussing for years the possibility of putting into place a stallion inspection/certification scheme in hopes of weeding out some of the stallions that are being bred erroneously, but there are many that oppose this.  I am sure that many of the opposing people are ones that own a stallion that might not meet the breed standard, and therefore would not pass inspection.  We are doing our part working with the American Association to help develop a scheme to improve the stock in hopes that they can eventually help their breeders to produce the best stock they are capable of.  Unfortunately, at this time there is nothing in place to set this process in motion.  

So, the bottom line in this debate is...  An English Shire horse is a Shire horse anywhere in the world.  It has come from stock that has been inspected over and over again, and from stock that has most likely been shown in serious competition.  An American Shire horse has been bred by a breeder that may or may not know what to look for in a good shire horse, and it nor it's recent relatives have most likely never been to a show with any real competition.  We are not saying that there are not some wonderful American-bred shire horses out there.  What we are saying is that because of the lack of promotion, education, and geography which limits real competition in shows, shires in the UK are, as a whole, better bred and more conforming to the breed standard.  We have seen this "proof in the pudding" as well, as the vast majority of horses that do well in American show rings are directly imported from England or from all recently-imported stock.  What it comes down to is love of the breed and basic economics.  Since we want to breed only the best shire horses that we can, and want to be able to sell a high-quality shire horse now and then, it only makes sense to breed horses from English lines, and register with the English SHS.  That way our horses are registerable anywhere in the world, not being limited to registration only in the United States, and are therefore are exportable to any corner of the planet.  They are also considered, worldwide, to be from the country which has the highest standards for breeding shires.   You can't get much better than that!

BREEDING:

Some thoughts about breeding Shire Horses...

4 Whites and a blaze:
     We get hundreds of calls and e-mails a season from people who are looking for shires to purchase.  A good percentage of these calls (probably about 70%) are looking for a horse that is black with 4 white socks and a blaze.  This area is to tell you our views on this issue.
     In this country, most shires are black, then comes bay/brown, then comes gray.  I don't have exact numbers on how many of each, but suffice it to say black is most popular. It's easy to breed blacks, because if you breed a *true* black to a *true* black in shires, you will get a black.  That's not really the tough part, although the true black part is critical.  There are a large percentage of shires that are actually dark brown registered as black some by accident, some because "black sells".  Breeding 2 "off-blacks", or one off-black to a true black will get you a black only about half the time, and more browns the rest of the time.  I'm not going to go into the color genetics of black/brown/bay here though.
     OK, so now you have a nice black shire, not too tough.  Now lets stamp him out with 4 perfect white socks and a blaze; well there's where you're getting into trouble.  I would guesstimate that only about 15-20% of the shires around are black with 4 nice whites and a blaze.  That leaves about 80% of them not marked as "the market" wants them.  Does this make them the inferior horse?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!  Actually, the majority of the time these horses will be the higher quality horses!  The reason for that is that is that some breeders put color and markings at the top of their priority list, because that's what the market wants.  The fact of the matter (horsey 101) is that color and markings need to be WAY down low on a breeders priority list, with things like conformation and disposition being most important.  Don't get us wrong, there are some high quality shires out there *that happen* to be black with 4 whites and a blaze, but unfortunately, that is not all that common.  The way I look at it is that someone bred two high quality animals and, just by chance, the offspring came out with the quality in it's pedigree, and coincidentally had "the right" color and markings. 
      Another mistake that many people make is thinking that a horse with "perfect white" will throw it.  If that were the case, just about all shires would have the white people want.  It's a crap-shoot every time, no matter what the markings of the parents are.
     I sometimes envy the other draft breeds, namely Belgians and Percherons, because they are not burdened by these color and markings issues so much, and can get on with breeding the best possible horse.  We, as shire breeders, need to get our priorities back where they belong if we want to ensure the continued quality of the horses representing our breed.  It is very easy to get greedy and just breed a whole bunch of anything that is black with lots of white, and get babies that "the market" will buy.  We at Black Forest Shires cannot do this in good conscience. We want what's best for the breed, and not what's best for our pocketbooks.
     We recently purchased a stallion from England ("Earnshaw Ideal") after searching for several years in this country and abroad.  We wanted a black stallion (for the market) BUT waited years until we found a stallion that was black AND of the quality that we wanted to breed.  We were presented with several colts/stallions that were black with 4 perfect whites and a blaze, that we could have purchased locally or imported, but not one of them was of the quality that we desired.  Our new stallion is a black, he is big, BUT he does not have 4 perfect whites and a blaze (he has 3-1/2 white socks). It would have been MUCH cheaper and easier to buy one of those colts that were "perfectly" marked, and the kicker is that "the market" would likely have rewarded us better financially for one of those inferior horses standing at stud.  (Even though those stallions have NO better chance of throwing "perfect" markings than a stallion with less-than-perfect markings!)   As I said before, money is not what we're going for here.  I'd love to get rich off of horses, just as anybody would, but we cannot sacrifice our beloved breed for personal gain.  The moral of the story... Buy the best horse you can afford, not the horse with the best color that you can afford.   Do you really want to breed to a stallion when the best thing the owner can say about him is that he has 4 whites and a blaze? 

If I want to breed a shire that has 4 white socks and a blaze, do I have to start with a pair of shires with these markings?  Absolutely not!  Shire breeding 101: Shire markings DO NOT breed true.  Of course, the fact that no one should be breeding just for color and markings should come into play here as well.  Many a shire breeder has been greatly disappointed through the years, at paying a pretty penny for "perfectly marked" stock, only to find that those horses had essentially no better chance of producing a "perfectly marked" foal, than did the horse (that was likely better quality) that they passed up because his/her markings were not as "tidy".  Don't be lured into the thought that you can get rich by breeding foals with perfect color and markings by starting with parents with those markings!   This, along with the fact that breeding just for color usually results in inferior stock, has put very many shire breeders out of business in the past.  Don't make the mistake of  breeding your mare(s) to a stallion who's biggest attribute is that he has "perfect shire markings".  Tell that to a perspective buyer when they ask about your bloodlines!   Breed for the best horse, not for the best colored horse!  You don't want to end up with a horse that has nothing to fall back on when his socks aren't in the right place!

How difficult is using A.I. /transported semen?  A.I. on the mare-owner's end is just as simple as finding the right vet.  A vet well versed in Equine A.I. is imperative to any successful breeding operation.  The actual cost can be similar to doing on-the-farm breeding, as there are no mare-care expenses involved from the stallion owner.  The stress-factor for mares, not having to travel away from home, is another very important feature of breeding A.I.  There is also no loss of use of your mare during the time that she is being bred.   She can be inseminated one minute, and tacked-up for a workout the next.   Black Forest Shires will happily answer any A.I. related questions before you start the process, just e-mail us.  For a great article on A.I. and breeding see the linked article on the Pennwoods Percherons site.   For another good source of information on A.I. and breeding, see the web site of THE HORSE magazine, at www.thehorse.com.  Do a search on A.I., breeding or other breeding related terms in their search field.

Why is A.I./shipped semen so important in breeding shire horses?   Since there are so few shires available, the chances that the stallion which happens to be right down the road from you  is 1) of exceptional quality and 2) is right for your mare, are slim at best. In order to improve this breed, and to breed the best shire-cross, breeders should be responsible to find and use the *best* animal they can find, not the most convenient one!

What are the concerns in breeding light mares to heavy stallions?  Basically, none! With the use of A.I., any sized mare can be bred to any sized stallion. It has been proven again and again that the old adage "the mare takes care of it" is absolutely true. A mare will not have a foal that is larger than she can bear because of genetics. Studies have even been done where full-blooded shire embryos were transferred into Shetland pony mares. Each of the mares foaled, without difficulty, these purebred shire foals!  Colorado State University routinely uses light-breed mares for their transfer recipients of draft horse embryos, with great success.